Math and English classes are designed to help students prepare for college-level courses, but studies have shown that they make it harder for students to graduate from college. Students get stuck in these remedial courses that they often don't need, get frustrated and drop out.
Despite attempts to limit remedial education in California, many colleges still offer it. The new bill will go even further and eliminate these categories almost completely . What does it take to cancel courses and why is it important?
Education Beat is a weekly podcast hosted by EdSource's JD Stavely and produced by Coby McDonald.
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Welcome to Education Bit. I'm Ann Vasquez, CEO of AdSource. Gov. Gavin Newsom now has a bill on his desk that would effectively ban the teaching of math and English to community college students. Remedial courses are designed to help students who are not yet ready for college-level courses, but research has shown that they make it harder for students to graduate from college. Many people get stuck on these treatments that they don't really need. And then you feel disappointed.
Anna Glog:
Long, long road for students. In fact, we have lost a lot of students. I think that only 5% of students take their first math course in college.
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What are universities doing to shorten support cycles? How will this bill help? Here is this week's tutorial with host Zaidi Staffeli.
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Ann Gallag has always loved math.
Anna Glog:
Growing up in Romania, I wasn't as afraid of math as I was when I came to America. So my choice of mathematics alone was not unusual.
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Ann moved to the United States and attended high school and college there. Today he holds the Department of Mathematics at San Diego Miramar College. He found himself enjoying teaching mathematics.
Anna Glog:
All students bring their stories. And I just want to get to know them and see how their brains work. Base. I really enjoy solving problems. It's like how you solve this puzzle and different people approach it differently. It is this curiosity, the curiosity to know how other people solve problems, that is perhaps my biggest motivation.
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But for a long time, Ann struggled with some math class. He has several private lessons. These courses are designed to help students catch up if they don't have enough math skills to take college-level math courses. Students are referred to enroll in these courses based on an entrance test. But Ann realized that many of her students in that class didn't need to be there.
Anna Glog:
Many students found it very easy. Many students graduate from high school with a full math class. They also involved calculations or even arithmetic operations. And they will be placed in this cycle that they never needed. They knew the material, but kind of tried it, because it wasn't a problem for them. It was very frustrating. They just go away and never show up again.
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To make matters worse, remedial courses significantly lengthened students' journeys to college.
Anna Glog:
If they started with math for beginners, which would be similar to pre-algebra, they would have to take three additional math courses before they could progress to the college level. Thus, I think that only 5% of students were able to complete the undergraduate or pre-university level in their first year of mathematics at the college level. Thus, we have lost many students due to loopholes. And I would probably think that if they failed the math class, they would probably drop out. So they didn't really get the college experience they wanted.
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When California passed AB 705 in 2017, Ann was thrilled.
Anna Glog:
Yes, I think I celebrated.
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AB 705 states that colleges cannot place students in remedial classes if they cannot be successful in college-level research. The entire college math team got together and figured out how to get rid of most of her remedial courses. First, students no longer take math entrance exams, but instead show their high school diplomas. Second, if they need more help, they can take a companion course that will help them learn some of the basics they need, but take it at the same time as the college-wide course. They refer to these categories as auxiliaries rather than prerequisites because you get the information you need at the same time as before. And in Miramar, most of the treatments were stopped, but a few were still offered.
Anna Glog:
So we went from about 30 or 40 gears to two. So it's been a huge turnaround, but we're basically in the final stages of the introductory course.
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This is Education Beat, which penetrates the very heart of California schools. I'm Zeddy Stavely. The community college canceled remedial classes this week.
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San Diego Miramar College is not the only college that still offers remedial education. In fact, over a third of the system's colleges, 46 in total, are still offering remedial courses this fall. Some offer much more than Miramar. So now they have a new bill to try to abolish supplementary special education. My colleague Michael Burke writes about the removal of community college remedial courses for EdSource. Well, Michael, could you go back a little and tell us about the reasons for AB 705?
Michael:
There were several studies before this legislature in 2017, including PPIC, which basically showed that students who completed these pre-conversion courses failed to complete a degree or certificate or any other purpose. I think there were some statistics in history this week that basically showed that it was. I think that 16% of the students who took these courses have already received their degree or certificate within four years, and less than a quarter of them were in a four-year university. So I think this kind of research was the main driving force behind the bill, and it especially affected black and Hispanic students.
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Have you talked to students about their experiences in remedial courses?
Michael:
Yes. And I think that definitely reflects at least the students that I've talked to, you know, some of that research. Students who were in remedial classes, I spoke to one last year who dropped out of school altogether. He didn't go to school for 10 years. This was in the mid 2000s. He returned to San Francisco City College Community College around the time he completed 705 and was able to use this to convince his advisors to let him go to the transfer level. And that's why he was on the move. I think he's at San Francisco State University now. And I've talked to other students who think rights are important because counselors can sometimes, for example, recommend remedial education. And even though it's not mandatory from a student's point of view, or students don't necessarily know they don't know very well, you know there is a 705 and there is this law that gives them the right to move into A-level classes to switch. For example, I spoke to a student who was familiar with 705 but had a counselor who strongly encouraged him to attend remedial courses. And this student, because she knew about the law, somehow managed to convince the chancellor to accept her into the transfer class. But he expressed concern to me that other students might not necessarily know about the law and still take these remedial courses.
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Therefore, many consider the AB 705 a partial success. 93% of introductory math courses in the state are currently taught at the college level. compared to 36% in 2017. Students are also more successful. In 2018, only 24% of first-year students completed college-level mathematics in a single semester. 46% of them have done so as of Fall 2020. But so many colleges still offer remedial classes that the California legislature recently passed a new law, AB 1705. Michael, can you explain the new law?
Michael:
Yes, so 1705 I think one of the major differences is that 705 still leaves some leeway for the colleges. This still leaves the colleges free to retain students or enroll students in these remedial classes. The new law significantly tightens it and contains more specific rules. As you know, colleges are mostly students studying in adult education courses or vocational and technical education courses. Some students, as you know, never finished high school. Certain groups of students who are allowed by colleges to enroll in remedial classes under this law are not enrolled in transfer classes. In addition, it is very difficult for colleges to enroll a student in remedial classes. I think it's a big difference. This does describe the specific circumstances in which this is acceptable, whereas in the past it has simply been said that you should enroll students in the transitional level unless they are very successful. Colleges are given some leeway in making these decisions, and consultants are given the freedom to determine which rates are most likely to fail.
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Anyone against the bill?
Michael:
Yes, there is definitely resistance. I think the most prominent example of this is the Community College Association, which is a nationwide advocacy group. Their objection basically boils down to agreeing that 705 is good for most students. It makes sense to skip these courses. But they are particularly concerned that this new bill will be too restrictive. In essence, this will result in no student being able to attend extra classes. According to them, perhaps 10% of students can use remedial education. And they're concerned that these students, you know, need to go straight to the transitional level and maybe they're not ready for this class. Perhaps this discourages them, they think that the new law is going too far, too strict, and that 705 was enough. Another reason is that most colleges allow students in these transition grades to enroll in a general class at the same time where they can receive additional help, tuition, and transition courses. So if you're not quite ready for a conversion level course, sorting your course materials can help.
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The reasons universities continue to offer remedial education vary. Ann Glog says the main reason San Diego Miramar has two treatments is because other departments require them as prerequisites. For example, the Department of Chemistry requires intermediate algebra before studying combustion and diesel engineering, and the vocational education major also requires intermediate algebra.
Anna Glog:
Our goal for the next few years is to develop an intermediate math course with sections that will give students the math skills they need. But we have to create a curriculum, approve it, etc. So it's a very long process and it should be linked to CSU and UC. So the process of writing and approving a new course can take 2, 3, 4 years.
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Speakers at other colleges gave Michael other reasons to offer remedial courses.
Michael:
I think it definitely varies from college to college. I spoke to Questa College, a college on the Central Coast, and I spoke to VIPs. These courses are specifically designed for Science, Technology, Engineering and Mathematics (STEM) students who have not attended college for a long time. And to keep up with these students, you know math and these remedial courses and courses. And these courses are of course optional, but he told me that I think they only have four sections, and each section is more than 90% complete. So, from their point of view, this indicates that some students still have a demand. For this reason, some types of colleges find it important to be able to have students from certain demographics attend classes.
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And I'm interested because some colleges say we still have a lot of needs. Students read these chapters. . . குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு குக்கு
Anna Glog:
Students will want to go to them because they are there, although they are likely to do well in these supported classes. I have a student like me. অন্য়্য়্তা আম্য়্তা স্র্ক্নিমিতি শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত HI শেকাকাক্চাক্ত শেকাকাক্চাক্ত স্র্ক্নিমিতি স্র্ক্নিমিতি স্র্ক্নিমিতি Perhaps he studied well in these classes, but he was worried that he did not go to school for some time. He told me that I told him encouraged him. Yes, I'll be there. Clean. You are doing well, and you know that you lack some skills. Well, there we will practice them. But he refused my class and chose a lower level. That's why it was there. That's why I think that if we keep these classes, the students themselves will choose classes for lower levels. அமை கெட்டை சாக்கி கியை தெத்தை நெட்டு குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை குரை HI
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So, Michael, I think it's not just about expecting students to introduce themselves, or choosing an advanced course. Also, help them understand that they can actually take a high-level course.
Michael:
This is definitely true. In fact, one of the colleges I spoke to, Contra Costa Community College, still offers special education, and there are still several special education courses offered this fall. And one of their administrators that I met really interacted with all the students in that class. It just makes sure they know, hey, there's a new 705 law that says you shouldn't be in that class. You can go directly to the transport layer, especially if your goal is to move. In theory, he heard from many of these students that they didn't know that they really shouldn't be attending these remedial classes. If these classes are available, students will take them. Even if it is not in their best interest, even if you knew that if they were more aware of their choice, they would not take this course.
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Thank you for listening to this week's EdSource Education Beat to get into the heart of California schools. You can find Michael's story at edsource.org. Our product is Coby McDonald. Special thanks to our guests, Ann Galage and Michael Burke. Our CEO is Ann Vasquez. From our Blue Dot Music session. The Future College Foundation brought you this episode. I'm Zeddy Stifeli. Come see me next week and join me. So you will never miss a single episode.
